ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF COUNTRY 

Intro music- WAVES EMILY MUSIC  

Angelique Pouponneau

And we as Small Island Developing States have to ratify because our power will come from being a Party, because Parties are the only ones able to be to make decisions.

Jennifer – Hello and Welcome back to NEGOTIATING THE OCEAN – an Ocean Equity podcast by the Australian National Centre for Ocean Resources and Security – ANCORS at the University of Wollongong. I’m Jennifer Macey.

Ina: And I’m Ina Tessnow-von Wysocki.

In the last episode we met the co-chairs of the PrepComs of the new Ocean Treaty on Biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction or BBNJ. And we talked about ocean equity in these negotiations.

Jennifer: So, Ina who actually turns up to these meetings?

Ina – So obviously there’s the delegations from national governments, but there’s also other stakeholders that attend these ocean negotiations including international governmental organisations like UN agencies, but also non-government organisations like environment groups or industry representatives or scientists and researchers!

Jennifer: In the next three episodes we’re going to meet some of them and do a mini-series just on stakeholders who are participating in the BBNJ negotiation. First off, we’re going to meet a key leader from the Small Island Developing States, then a representative from civil society and finally we speak to a scientist who is an expert on some of the key issues being discussed at the ocean negotiations.

Ina: And today, we focus on small island developing States and their concern about ocean equity, because their situation is different:

Montage SIDS

“Small Island Developing States are exceptional. Exceptionally beautiful, exceptionally resilient. But exceptionally vulnerable. Your unique geography puts you at the mercy of climate chaos, rising sea levels and land degradation. Climate change is an existential crisis for the entire human family, but SIDS are on the frontlines.”

Jennifer: Surrounded by water, their maritime jurisdictions are often larger than their land. Small Island States depend on the ocean for everything: For food, jobs, their livelihoods. They’ve acted as stewards of the ocean for a long time – and while they’re not responsible for the climate crisis, they are among the most affected by the impacts of climate change.

Ina: And they are also very active in the ocean negotiations…

Montage [AOSIS Treaty of the High Seas #BBNJ Adoption]

Ina: …and have formed negotiating blocks, like the alliance of Small Island States or AOSIS.

Montage AOSIS Treaty of the High Seas #BBNJ Adoption

Ina: Small Island States take an active role in the Preparatory Commission meetings – or the Prep Coms – which prepare the Conference of the Parties meetings. But in contrast to some of the larger and wealthier countries, their capacities are limited.

Jennifer: Today, we’re gonna talk to the lead negotiator of the alliance of small island states, Angelique Pouponneau. She is from the Seychelles talks about what ocean equity means for some of the smaller delegations.

Angelique Pouponneau: Greetings, everybody. My name is Angelique Pouponneau. I am the lead ocean negotiator for the Alliance of small island states, a coalition of 39 small island developing states, negotiating across climate, ocean and sustainable development negotiation processes.

Ina: And how are you involved with this new ocean treaty on biodiversity?

Angelique Pouponneau: So we are coming to the Prep com, as most people like to refer to it, and the Alliance of Small Island States represented the interests and the special circumstances of small island developing states during the IGC and we hope to continue to do the same in the PrepCom to make sure that there is really the operationalization of the very important principle that we anchored in the BBNJ agreement, which is this, the recognition of the special circumstances of SIDS.

Ina: How is this new treaty going to be important, and for whom?

Angelique Pouponneau: The treaty is important for everyone, I think, is the starting point. This is historical achievement for the international community to have adopted such a such a treaty. Now what comes next, I think, is even more important, which is around really shifting the way in which the areas beyond national jurisdiction, and in particular in relation to marine biodiversity, is actually perceived, but also engaged with by countries. The pre BBNJ agreement it seemed that the countries with the technology, with the vessels, with the capacity to go out into the high seas, were able to benefit from them, but as a result of lack of regulation also meant we were all responsible for it, and no one was responsible for it, which led to the tragedy of the commons. So, the treaty seeks to address this issue, but I think really what comes next in terms of how we ensure that it is not only a few who benefit, but also not only a few who feel the responsibility towards this treaty.

Ina: And how does this treaty concretely deal with ocean equity? So how can this treaty advance ocean equity?

Angelique Pouponneau: So, areas beyond national jurisdiction was the playground of a few countries, and it has led to depletion of many marine resources, unsustainable practices, destructive fishing practices. And in terms of one of the, what has been termed as the importance of universality of this treaty, is making sure that everybody is now able to participate. So, what this treaty does is, and this was something that was very important to small island developing states, was this focus on capacity building and technology transfer. How are we providing the states who have traditionally not been able to engage in any type of activities in areas beyond national jurisdiction, with the capacity, with the technology transfer, with the finance to be able to engage. And the beauty of it is not to engage in destructive practices, but to engage within the rules and the bounds of the treaty which ensures the conservation and sustainable use of marine biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction. And I think it’s really important to highlight that the ocean equity aspect is very much linked to participation and very much linked to the universality of the agreement.

Ina: And do you have some ideas or some recommendations how this inclusive participation could take place, or what would be needed for BBNJ to make sure that this is happening?

Angelique Pouponneau: There are many concrete ways in which this can be done. And I’ll give a few examples. One, for example is, we talked about, we have a whole section on marine genetic resources, including access and benefit sharing. Many small island developing states do not have, I mean, they have the ocean space, but certainly not the capacity to even – and here I’m talking about scientific and technological capacity – to even manipulate data, engage in research excursions and so on. So, one of the concrete things that I suspect the treaty will lead to is participation, and not only participation, but really, and I’m going to speak very much from a SIDS perspective, but like SIDS leadership in research, and then how do we make sure that Small Island Developing States are also having the infrastructure right? I know the treaty talks about these administrative, legislative or policy obligations for notification of DSI and so on, but what is the infrastructure we need on ground? Somebody is going to need to read this, somebody’s going to need to process this information. That capacity doesn’t exist. Will there need to be a bank of some sort that holds all this type of material, information and so on? I think it’s very close to heart all of this, because this is a whole other sector that small island developing states have been talking about since 2015 when we said how important our ocean was and how we need to maximize its potential, but that yet never had the technology and capacity to do it. And BBNJ now provides us this like extra opportunity to be able to actualize this. So that’s one. And of course, the benefits in that area is both non-monetary and monetary, right? So, the research that will come out of this, but then thinking about later on down the line, if there is commercialisation, what monetary benefits will flow.

The other one that I think is also particularly fascinating about participation is Small Island Developing States have always considered themselves stewards of the ocean, right? In terms of exclusive economic zone, we have 30% of the world’s ocean space, and now we have this opportunity to actually extend our stewardship beyond national jurisdiction, and where we have the opportunity to really shape what is happening – and I know this is controversial because it didn’t land in the treaty – but what is happening adjacent to us. Whether it is by establishing area-based management tools in areas in close proximity to us, or the fact that we now have EIA processes that provides the framework for us to have a say in what is happening in close proximity to us. And I think this is a true opportunity for us to be able to extend our ocean stewardship, and also a very concrete example of how there will almost be a shift in power, which is very much foundational to the concept of equity.

Jennifer: Just a reminder that while many countries have signed the treaty – at least 60 countries have to ratify for the agreement to enter into force. Ratification, remember, is when a country adopts the treaty into their own national law. Angelique Pouponneau says it’s really important for Small Island Developing States – or SIDS – to ratify the treaty into their own domestic law so that they can have an active role in the international negotiations.

Angelique Pouponneau: Small Island Developing States have prioritized the importance of ratification, and you’ve seen when it comes to signatories now, there are domestic hurdles that need to be overcome. But I think that what we want to highlight that is particularly important is who will actually be able to make decisions at the COP, and that’s Parties, so countries that have ratified. And here it goes very much to the theme of ocean equity, and who’s at the decision making table, and who does power lie with. Because, pre entry into force and even post entry into force, there are countries with political power who influence the negotiations, whether or not they are Parties to it. Those countries are not Small Island Developing States. And we as Small Island Developing States have to ratify because our power will come from being a Party, and only part because Parties are the only ones able to be to make decisions! So that is a top priority for us to at least at the very minimum, most of us being at the decision-making table by COP1. But we have to overcome the lack of drafts person in the Attorney General’s chambers who need to draft these laws before we can complete the ratification process.

Ina: We’re at a really exciting time right now where the UN is gathering for the first PrepCom meeting in New York. The treaty establishes new institutions, which are still being designed now. And these PrepCom meetings are all about developing the details of these institutions for implementing the Ocean treaty. Angelique Pouponneau says its critical for the Small Island Developing states to be part of these institutions from the very beginning and in the long term.

Angelique Pouponneau: So, Small Island Developing States have always been vested in getting a good and effective, a universal, implementable BBNJ agreement. But what will be even more important is making sure there is SIDS representation within the institutional arrangements. And what that means is the discussions that will take place at the Prepcom you know, around how do we have the right selection process? How do we have the right terms of reference? Who’s eligible to participate? We need to make sure that there aren’t these invisible barriers to SIDS participation, or SIDS being even eligible. But we also need to make sure that within the terms of reference, we’re making sure that there are people on these different subsidiary bodies and committees established by the COP that have the competence to understand issues that SIDS are dealing with. So, SIDS representation will be a top priority for the Alliance of Small Island States, and it will manifest very strongly in our engagement at PrepCom.

Jennifer: A big Thank you to Angelique Pouponneau the lead negotiator for the Alliance of Small Island States – or AOSIS.

Ina: In the next episode we’ll hear from civil society. We’ll speak to Rebecca Hubbard, the director of the High Seas Alliance – an alliance of more than 60 NGOs. She talks about getting the institutions right from the start to best protect marine biodiversity and address ocean equity.

Jennifer: So, Ina, as we put this episode together people are heading to New York for the first ever Preparatory Commission meeting of the BBNJ.

Ina: That’s right – the BBNJ Prepcom is coming up so for more resources go to our show notes where we have included links to the UN documents that will be discussed during the negotiations.

Jennifer: We’ve also included a link to the AOSIS website and some background information published by our ANCORS researchers. Please send any comments or feedback to inatvw@uow.edu.au

Ina: This podcast was edited by Emily Perkins and communication is by Sunnefa Yeatman.

Thank you also to ANCORS and the Nippon Foundation for their support for the making of this podcast.

Jennifer: I’m Jennifer Macey

Ina: And I’m Ina Tessnow-von Wysocki.

Jennifer: Thanks for listening!

Ina: “Sea” you next time!